On the Veneti in Ptolemy’s Geography

After Pliny the  Elder and Tacitus comes Ptolemy.  Here is what he has to say about the Venethi (we provide context from both the section on Germania and on Sarmatia).

Ptolemy’s ( 90 A.D. and 168 A.D.) Geography

This is from Book II, Chapter 10 (Germania):

germania

On the geography of Germania we learn:

“The western boundary of Germany is the river Rhine, and its northern boundary is the Germanic Ocean, of the shore of which the following is a description… After the mouths of the Rhine river [you have the following rivers: Vidrus [?], Amisia [Ems], Visurgis [Weser?] and Albis [Elbe].”

Then we are told we come to the “Cimbrian peninsula”, i.e., Jutland (or Dennmark). At which point we get (going up and then back down) “the cape after the Albis [Elbe], the next cape, the next one, the northernmost, the first cape after the bend, the easternmost part of it, the next one below this one, a bend towards the east…”

and then “the mouths of the Chalusus river, the mouths of the Suevus river, the mouths of the Viadua river and the mouths of the Vistula river, the head of the river, the source which is to the west and is said to be towards the Albis [Elbe]“.

Now the interesting thing here is that we do not know which rivers are Chalusus, Suevus or Viadua (the latter two have each been identified as the Oder).  Vistula is, supposedly, the river Wisla (or Vistula).  Seems straightforward there…

Then we see who lives in this Germania:

“Those that inhabit Germany on the other side of the river Rhine, if we go towards the north, are the Bructeri minores and the Sygambri, below whom the Suevi Langobardi; then the Tencteri and the Incriones between the Rhine and the Abnobaei mountains; and then the Intuergi and the Vargiones and the Caritni, below whom the Vispi and the Desert of the Helvetii until those mountains we referred to as the Alps.

… the Bructeri up to the Amisia river … to the north the Cimbri; after the Saxons from the Chalusus river to the Suevian river the Farodini, then the Sidini up to the Viadua river, and after these the Rugiclei up to the Vistula river….

Of the people of the interior and those who live inland the most important are the Suevi Angili, who are to the east of the Langobardi extending towards the north and up to the central part of the Albis river, and the Suevi Semnones, whose boundaries beyond the Albis extend from the area we mentioned towards the east up to the Suevus river, and the Burguntae, who inhabit from there to the Vistula.

…Back below the Semnones the Silingae have their seat, and below the Burguntae the Lugi Omani, below whom the Lugi Diduni up to Mt. Asciburgius; and below the Silingae the Calucones and the Camavi up to Mt. Melibocus, from whom to the east near the Albis river and above them, below Mt. Asciburgius, the Corconti and the Lugi Buri up to the head of the Vistula river; and below them first the Sidones, then the Cotini, then the Visburgii above the Orcynius valley…

…There are three islands located above Germany at the mouths of the Albis, which are called Saxon…   Above the Cimbrian peninsula there are three other islands which are called the Alociae islands… East of the Cimbrian peninsula there are four islands called the Scandian islands, three of them smaller… but one of them very large and the most eastwards at the mouth of the river Vistula… It is properly called Scandia itself; and its western region is inhabited by the Chaedini, its eastern region by the Favonae and the Firaesi, its northern region by the Finni, its southern region by the Gutae (Gautae) and the Dauciones, and its central region by the Levoni.”

This is from Book III, Chapter V of Ptolemy’s Geography (Sarmatia):

Sarmatia

We are first told about the geography of Sarmatia:

“European Sarmatia is terminated on the north by the Sarmatian ocean adjoining the Venedicus bay and by a part of the unknown land, a description of which is the following [refers to four rivers: Chronus, Rubonis, Turuntus and Chesinus [supposedly, Pregel, Memel, Duna and Neva.

The terminus of its seacoast is located on that parallel extending thru Thule … the terminus of Sarmatia, which extends southward thru the sources of the Tanais [Don] river…

It is terminated in the west by the Vistula river and by that part of Germania lying between its source and the Sarmatian mountains but not by the mountains themselves, the position of which has been indicated; on the south by Iazyges Metanastae then from the southern terminus of the Sarmatian mountains to the beginning of the Carpathian mountains … and by the following part of Dacia along that parallel up to the mouth of the Borysthenes [Dniepr] river, and the shore of the Pontus which is near the Carcinitus river [somewhere in the Crimea].”

The description of Sarmatia veers eastwards but then Ptolemy returns to who lives in Sarmatia:

“The Greater Venedae races inhabit Sarmatia along the entire Venedicus bay;

and above Dacia are the Peucini and the Basternae; and along the entire coast of Maeotis are the Iazyges and the Rhoxolani; more toward the interior from these are the Amaxobii and the Scythian Alani.

Lesser races inhabit Sarmatia near the Vistula river.

Below the Venedae are the Gythones, then the Finni, then the Sulones; below whom are the Phrungundiones; then the Avarini near the source of the Vistula river; below these are the Ombrones, then the Anartophracti, then the Burgiones, then the Arsietae, then the Saboci, then the Piengitae and the Biessi near the Carpathian mountains.

Among those we have named to the east:

below the Venedae are the Galindae, the Sudini, and the Stavani, extending as far as the Alauni; below these are the Igylliones, then the Coestoboci and the Transmontani extending as far as the Peuca mountains.

Back from the Ocean, near the Venedicus bay, the Veltae dwell, above whom are the Ossi; then more toward the north the Carbones and toward the east are the Careotae and the Sali; below whom are the Gelones, the Hippopodes and the Melanchlaeni; below these are the Agathyrsi; then the Aorsi and the Pagyritae; then the Savari and the Borusci to the Ripaeos mountains; then the Acibi and the Nasci; below whom are the Vibiones and the Idrae; and below the Vibiones bordering on the Alauni are the Sturni, and between the Alauni and the Amaxobii are the Cariones and the Sargati; near the bend of the Tanis river are the Ophlones and then the Tanaitae; below whom are the Osili extending as far as Rhoxolanis; between the Amaxobii and the Rhoxolani are the Rheucanali and the Exobygitae; and between the Peucini and the Basternae are the Carpiani, above whom are the Gevini, then the Bodini; between the Basternae and the Rhoxolani are the Chuni, and below the mountains named from these are the Amadoci and the Navari.

Near Lake Byce dwell the Toreccadae, and near Achilles Cursus the Tauroscythae; below the Basternae near Dacia are the Tigri and below these are the Tyrangitae. Below the bend of the Tanais…”

It is clear from this that the key word is “below”.

Copyright ©2014 jassa.org, All Rights Reserved

September 13, 2014

8 thoughts on “On the Veneti in Ptolemy’s Geography

  1. Pingback: Batavian Veleti Part I | In Nomine Jassa

  2. Pingback: Between Rhine and Danube | In Nomine Jassa

  3. medneu

    the veneti of Ptolemy were Balts?
    Did medieval writer Jordanes confuse them with Slavs?
    Are Venedi and Sarmatae ancient names for the Slavs?
    Oldest Slav tribal names are Alanic; Spori, Antes, as they were the vassals to Alans

    Reply
  4. medneu

    I think veltae and Baltic veneti were Balto-Slavic and the last group to evolve as Slavs, after the Antes and Slaveni

    Reply
  5. Mrkotzy

    is it possible maybe that word Lugi in: Lugi Omani, Lugi Buri, Lugi Diduni, actually comes from Slavic word “Liudi” (People, humans)? And written as “Lugi” would be how Roman and Greek writers heard this word.

    Reply

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *