On the Moinu-Winidi & the Ratanz-Winidi & the Vindelici

It is true that we have not posted all the early reference to Slavs as Wends/ Winids/Windische.  We’ve got to keep you coming back after all.  For the earlier version of this topic see here.  And now back to the Wends:

Part I

From the year 846 (a document from the time of Louis the German) we have the following information (regarding an earlier time around the year 793-794 or so):

(Moinum/Moinu refers to the River Main.  Radantiam/Ratanz refers to Radęca or, as it is called these days, River Regnitz/Rednitz).

It tells of how “Charlemagne sent his bishops into the “terra Sclavorum”, i.e., the land of the Slavs who live between the Main and the Regnitz and who were, therefore, called the Main-Wends and the Regenz-Wends.”  It is part of an order by Charlemagne to the Würzburg Bishop Bernwelf (768 or769 – 800) to build fourteen missionary churches among these Slavs.

Wilhelm Obermüllerʼs Deutsch-Keltisches, geschichtlich-geographisches Wörterbuch explains their placement by asserting that they arrived there as conquerors after Samo’s victory over Dagobert in the year 630 but this seems an anticipatory argument as no source, including Fredegar’s Chronicle, says anything of the sort – the Chronicle merely notes that there were raids into Frankish lands following the Wendish victory at Wogastisburg – the suggestion of a permanent settlement seems to have been made up by Obermüller.

What’s more other sources such as the Annales Mettenses Priores seem to indicate vaguely Slavic names with -in endings such as:

• Mohin (the name for the River Main!); and

• Wirzin-burg (or Wirsin-burg)

We include here a map showing the presumed location of this land with the red line showing the River Main, the blue line the River Regnitz and the slightly darker blue line showing its tributary the River Rednitz.  The pins point to various “Wind” towns in the area: Burgwindheim, Bad Windsheim, Windsfeld, Windsbach and Windelsbach.  We let you find Pommersfelden (probably in someways tied to Pomerania but maybe not) by yourself.  Perhaps the area is just very windy?

 Part II

So that is that – but now take a look at this map which we put together thinking of those other Vindi or rather Vinde-lici discussed by Strabo.

Vindelici were supposedly a Celtic tribe – the Celtic designation often seemingly being that dumping place where you put things that are clearly not Germanic but that – or so you think – cannot possibly be Slavic (their city was  Kambodunon a rather Celtic name though!).  Yet in his Vergilii Aeneidem commentary (Commentaries on Virgil’s Aeneid), we are told by Marcus Servius Honoratus that the Vindelici were Liburnians.  He says at paragraph 243:

• we’ve got another Vind tribe in its own area of Vindelicia (previously discussed);

• the Vind tribe’s (or tribes’) area of settlement includes the town of Bregenz (shown in red above) on the shore (breg) of Lake Venetus (previously discussed);

• all of those are remarkably close to the area of the Veneti (previously discussed);

Now what was not previously discussed (in detail) are the following facts:

• all of those places/peoples are incredibly close to the seats of the Moinu-winidi and Ratanz-winidi;

• the river that runs nearby the seats of the Vindelici towards the Danube is the Lech (shown in red above); and

• the Liburnians are a people of unclear ethnicity who were later “absorbed” by the Croats.

Specifically, Liburnia is in Croatia and it was here that the Croats were supposedly invited at the beginning of the 7th century as per Constantine Porphyrogenitus’ De Administrando Imperio.  More interesting, however, is that the Polish chronicler, Jan Dlugosz stated that the founder of the Poles – Lech – came from this area – specifically the mysterious Psary castle.  In fact, there is even an island here that is named Krk – somewhat like Cracow.  Krk is the former Roman Curicta but the city itself was Liburnian before being conquered by the Romans.  It also later fell to the Avars.  Interestingly, the allegedly Slavic R1a1 Y-dna was found at the highest concentrations in Croatia (except for Osijek) exactly at Krk.

Whether it matters that Cornelius Tacitus also wrote as follows:

“… some of the Suevi sacrifice to Isis [Yassa? Remember, in the statutes Cunradi it is written ysaya].  Whence the cause and origin of the foreign rite I have not ascertained, except that the symbol itself, in the shape of a Liburnian ship, indicates that the religion was brought from abroad.”

Is another question.

Part III

Finally, we ought to point something else out.  No one denies that the Germans (whoever they were back then) called their neighboring Slavs Wenden or Winden.  It has been suggested that this was a carryover from the Sarmatian Veneti whose name was “transferred” to the Slavs by the Germans.  Others have suggested that the Sarmatian Veneti were Slavs.  We have had a number of posts on this topic and we will not regurgitate that here.

However, now we have said “let us not forget the Vinde–lici” who usually are not identified with Slavs.  After all here you have a case of a “d” without anyone having to do any d>t and/or t>d transformations.  These people were Vinde and the Slavs were Windishe (the “v” and “w”, to state the obvious, are pronounced the same – there was no “w” in the time of the Vinde-lici).

And you got your -lici as in, maybe, lechy.

But there is something else.  If you look at the map below you will notice that the actual Vindelici are placed West of the River Lech (originally written by Latin writers as Liccus, i.e., Licc plus the Latin -us suffix).  That territory is now known as (Eastern) Swabia and on the connections (?) between Slavs, i.e., Suoveeane and the Suevi who are identified with the Schwaben of Swabia we’ve already spilt much ink on this website.

In fact, these days the Bodesee whose Obersee portion was previously referred to as Lacus Venetus is referred to, on occasion, as the Suevian Sea.

So were the Vinde-lici the ancestors of Lechs/Lechites/Lachs, i.e., Poles?  Were they simply Winds called Lici? Was the fact that Mieszko is described by Widukind of Corvey as leader of the Licikaviki somehow relevant here?  Were the Windi-lici driven down the Lech river North by Tiberius after their defeat on Lake Constance.

(Speaking of which there is also this curious reference).

Others have suggested that the Veneti were the Eastern Slavs, the name being Finnish or Ugrian (the White (?) Ugrians having driven deep into what is today Belarus and Ukraine).  The same people claimed that the Suevi were the Western Slavs.

But here we now have a connection between these Western Slavs (who were referred to as Wenden but not Veneti, the former name being German, the latter not) and their self-given name of Lechites.

In other words, all agree that Wends were a type of Slavs in the 600s but the connection between the Vinde-lici as a type of Suevi at the turn of the millennium is seemingly ignored.  If you were willing to admit that connection there would, of course, be a second question to ask, as to whether Vinde-lici really are the future Wends and the Suevi, the future Suoveanne or Slavs (we say “future” in a historiographic sense; obviously these people may already have been referred to as Wends and may have referred to themselves as Slavs but writers of that time only pick up Vindelici and Suevi).

Finally, recall that Nestor mentioned not only that the Slavs came from the Danube area but that, specifically, they were Noricans.  Noricum is right next to Vindelicia (see above map).  Of course, everyone assumes that when he says the Vlachs attacked/harassed the Slavs he is referring to the 600s.  But what if he was referring to the war on the Vinde-lici and their allies 600 years earlier?  Those too would have been Vlachs as in Italians.

Curious – those Pripet Marshes just do not look so convincing anymore.

So are we on to something or are we just pulling a Däniken?

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