Nedao in the Carpathians

“They took up arms against the destruction that menaced all and joined battle with the Huns in Pannonia, near a river called Nedao.  They took up arms against the destruction that menaced all and joined battle with the Huns in Pannonia, near a river called Nedao. (261) There an encounter took place between the various nations Attila had held under his sway. Kingdoms with their peoples were divided, and out of one body were made many members not responding to a common impulse. Being deprived of their head, they madly strove against each other. They never found their equals ranged against them without harming each other by wounds mutually given. And so the bravest nations tore themselves to pieces. For then, I think, must have occurred a most remarkable spectacle, where one might see the Goths fighting with pikes, the Gepidae raging with the sword, the Rugi breaking off the spears in their own wounds, the Suavi fighting on foot, the Huns with bows, the Alani drawing up a battle-line of heavy-armed and the Heruli of light-armed warriors.” 

So writes Jordanes in his Getica.

But… where is the River Nedao?  It has been assumed that this must be a river somewhere in Pannonia.  After all Jordanes says so.  Since the Gepids established themselves in future Transylvania and since Attila’s court had been on the Tisa, these facts would also point towards somewhere in Hungary or Romania.

A hint may be that Nedao seems to be a Germanized version (Nedau) of a name that likely was Nedava (see for example Częstochowa > Tschenstochau and a million other examples of the same) .  Interestingly, there is a village called Niedów (the former German Nieda which the Nazis renamed Wolfsberg, presumably because Nieda did not sound German enough for their ears).  Nieda appears in written sources starting in 1346 (NMP 7, 390) as Nedaw and other versions of the name follow (Nede, NiedaNyde, also Nedin, Nidaw, Niede, Nida).

Slavia Occidentalis

And this from University of Leipzig’s Namenkundliche Informationen:

Which brings us to another matter.  The Hervarar saga (ok Heiðreks) speaks of the Battle of the Goths and Huns which lists the participants:

Ár kváðu Humla
Húnum ráða,
Gizur Gautum,
Gotum Angantý,
Valdarr Dönum,
en Völum Kíarr,
Alrekr inn frækni
enskri þjóðu.

This is supposed to have been near the (or “a”) Mirkwood (Myrkviðr) viðr “wood, forest” and nearby we have the River Witka (Wittig).  Now the Goths and the Huns were supposed to have fought in the Vistula forest as per Widsith:

þonne Hræda here      heardum sweordum
ymb Wistlawudu      wergan sceoldon
ealdne eþelstol      ætlan leodum.
Rædhere sohte ic ond Rondhere,      Rumstan ond Gislhere,
Wiþergield ond Freoþeric,      Wudgan ond Haman 

This area is not near the Vistula sources.  But it is cut through by the Lusatian Nysa/Neisse which empties into the Oder/Odra.  Moreover, it’s possible to mistake the Nysa/Neisse as the source of the Oder.  Why is this relevant?  Because the Oder seems to be a better candidate for what the ancient writers meant when they wrote of the Vistula than today’s Vistula is.

Further, the Neisse/Nysa springs in the Jizera Mountains.  Are they a better candidate for the Jassarfjollum than the Jeseník?
(note: King Alfred puts the Goths east of Moravia – and be eastan Maroara londe is Wisle lond.  and be eastan þæm sint Datia, þa þe iu wæron Gotan – but this may be the “new” Vistula, that is the current one.)

Note that the name Nida appears all over Europe… In Poland several rivers bear that name.  But we also find Nida in Prussia and the Baltics and, most interestingly, as a tributary of the Main, entering that river west of Frankfurt. 

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April 3, 2017

11 thoughts on “Nedao in the Carpathians

  1. Savalas

    Germanic lost to the Huns, as usual, point.
    I lived in Frankfurt and had friends from South of it. Indeed they are all Baltoslavs. You say Balts. It is hair splitting. Nida has been a track for R1a for 5k yrs.

    Reply
  2. ygdrassil

    Some time ago I found a following explanation, that seems very likely to me:
    Nedao (corrupted) = Ledao (original) = Leitha (DE) = Lajta (HU) = Litava (CZ/SK) river on the historical borders between Austria and Hungary, right tributary to Danube.
    By the way, on the same site (unfortunately I don’t remember its URL) was given a suggestion, that:
    Bolia = Ipoly (HU) = Ipel (SK) river on the Slovak-Hungarian borders, left tributary to Danube

    Reply
    1. torino Post author

      Well, once you start with corruptions you can end up anywhere. The suggestion you refer to comes from
      Walter Steinhauser and is about 50 years old. Didn’t read his paper so could not say anything about it

      Reply
      1. ygdrassil

        Of course, it can be misleading… I haven’t read this paper too (to tell the truth, I’m not a professional historian and I haven’t got any idea, who was the author).
        However, as I learned, in Jordanes there are many more of much worse grammatical errors and corruptions, so that this simple exchange of one letter N for L seems really negligible – and what is important, in result it gives a resonable solution…

        Reply
        1. torino Post author

          Walter Steinhauser: Der Name der Leitha und die Hunnenschlacht am Nedao. In: Jahrbuch für Landeskunde von Niederösterreich. NF 36, Bd. 2, Wien 1964

          Reply
  3. Puscetus

    Nidda in Hesse and Paionia (Priskus), Panonnia (Jordanes) is in my opinion corruption from Paemonia (name from Paemani who were supposed to be original Germans)
    Ash Hills (Jassarfjollum) = Asciburgius = Asse Hills
    Asciburgius in Ptolemy is prolonged into east as whole east part of Germany (and Italia, Denmark tilted into east), so in reality it shouldn’t be that long.
    Dun Heide = Didun Heide Lands near Hills of Asse (there are several Heides there), spouthern lands of Obodrzyce /Diduni /Nadvanarvali
    As for Vistlawudu… no one would write wudu, because you don’t know where this battle was then. So it had to be Vistlamudu, mouth of Vistula (Odra). So this is copy and w was corrected into ƿ and in this case m.
    Other thing which was corrected is name of Harudes which was changed into Idumingas because Eoli, Isti, Idumingi correspond to Haloi, Fundusii, Harudes of Ptolemy (throuh connection in copyist’s mind between Herod – and Idumea, meaning he didn’t know who Harudes were).
    Hunni coming from ice bound ocean (Scandianvia) after fights with danish Frotho III landed on Vistlamudu.

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