Laba the Elbe

The river Elbe‘s etymology is not fully explained and probably never will be.  However, there are a number of plausible theories.

First and foremost is the “white” etymology which was touted by Hans Krahe or Julius Pokorny among others.  In this version the name means something like “white water.”  This etymology rests on an Indo-European or even pre-IE basis. (The idea is that “alb” means “white water” versus “dub” meaning “black water”).  The same etymology arguably applies to the Alps (as in the “white” mountains) though high mountains has also been proposed (from Celtic, though the higher the mounaints as in taller, the whiter they’d be so this becomes a bit of a conundrum).

Another theory has the name simply mean “river” based on the occurrence of the word in Celtic or Germanic languages.

The first and the second are not necessarily in conflict if, for example, one proposes that the Germanic/Nordic languages developed far in the north such that it made sense to call rivers “white” (after all, was there any other sort of river up there?).

The Slavic version of the name Laba is said to derive from the Nordic/Germanic:

  • Elbe > Labe

Kozierowski’s Atlas of Western Slav Geographical Names

It has been argued that Laba (Polish Łaba that is waba) is a late Czech innovation but we know that that is nonsense.  The name “Labe” appears already in Cosmas’ Chronicle at the beginning of the 12th century.

Earlier we have the Polabingi mentioned by Adam of Bremen (which also show the tendency of some writers to “create” -ingi endings for Slavic tribes (or Baltic, as in Jatwingi).

A Slavic word for a “boat” – łajba – may also come from this as already previously discussed.  Note that the Baltic > Slavic works the same way for that too:

  • Lithuanian aldija > ladja or лодья (lodya)

This is the same construct as with the proposed:

  • Aldoga > Ladoga
  • Elde > Lada

Or for that matter:

  • albus > łabędź [swan]

Or…

  • Arbeit > Rabota

Or countless others:

  • delve > dilbas/dulbis [Baltic] > dłubać

And assuming the Balts’ version of this corresponds closer to the Germanic version you can even explain the Baltic name:

  • baltais [Latvian for white] > ato [Czech for bog] but bołoto [Russian]

also the name for Lake Balaton suggesting that either the Balts or Slavs used to live in Pannonia.

At least that is the story.

That being said, there is no reason necessarily to suppose that Elbe needed to be the “first” version.  It is true that the earliest sources use elb/alb but could that itself be a “nordicization” of the underlying names?

Here we should note that there are plenty lab- lad- led- names in Indo-European, particularly, in Greek and related languages.

We have, after all, the Queen Leda – a lover of Zeus who appeared to Leda, appropriately for the topic du jour, in the form of a swan.  Interestingly, Leda’s children included Castor and Pollux with whom Lel and Polel had been wishfully (?) identified.  Both of the twins participated in Jason‘s Argonautic expedition to Colchis (for the proposed Colchian origin of the name of Poland see here), the same expedition which (as per Apollonius Rhodius’ Argonautica) later passed by the dragon (?) Ladon on the way back still alive after having been smitten by Heracles.  (Needless to say that some of these names appear similar to the Polish Gods Lada and Yassa).

Outside of mythology, we also have lips or labia which bear a striking similarity (in meaning and, arguably, in function) to the mouth of the Laba River.

We also have Ablabius or Ablavius – one “from” (ab) Laba?  (This Eastern Roman/Greek name also appears as the name of one of the sources for Cassiodorus’ Getica).  Thus in Indian languages we have abhi, abhi-tas.  In Slavic we have obok.  And in German we have ab.  As in ab und zu.  (Compare this to the Slavic od (earlier ot in a kind of a Slavic Lautverschiebung)).

Of course, the “z” is also present in Slavic to represent “from” (Interestingly, our suggestion that Z-łaby (or Słaby) could help explain the name of the Slavs had been made already in the 18th century!)

Uebi? Where is this from!?

In any event, in Germany/Netherlands there is also another River Leda.  In Spain we have the town of Liedena (next to Yesa).  Also, and curiously, Lada was the name for Anglo-Saxon legal “purging” rituals on which we will have more (see King Æthelred’s laws) (and, as mentioned the law of Genghis Khan was called Yassa).

There are at least two possibilities here.  One is that the Germanic languages have the capacity to originate/maintain both the Led- and the Eld- versions of names (but the Slavic only the latter!).  This is the same overreaching argument as in personal names – there we are told that the suffix –mir may be Slavic but it can also be Germanic.  But the suffixes -mar and –mer are exclusively Germanic.  In more recent times, we see the same argument applied to genetics.  The European versions of the haplogroup R1a may be “Slavic”.  But they also may be Germanic (or Celtic).  However, haplogroups R1b and I1 cannot be Slavic and are Germanic (or Celtic)… (What all of this, frankly, suggests is that the Germans are a mix of at least three different populations, bits and pieces of whose language and genes made their way into the common pot).  

Another possibility is that some of these names are simply not Germanic.  This would raise another question.  Which version is Germanic and which is not.  As between the Eld- and the Led-, we’d say that the Led- is the not Germanic version.  In that case, the question is whose language does it belong in?  And could it be Slavic, Baltic or something else altogether.

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April 2, 2017

9 thoughts on “Laba the Elbe

      1. Savalas

        @Torino 🙂
        Al- and La-Ba are names given by sea and river nomads. In Central Europe those would be mostly N and Q. Their spread overlapped with C and I. And so probably that is why these variants. It is a result of different dialects and languages from early on or of later language change: Alba, Elba, Łaba, Laboe, Łeba.
        Later those names were passed on to R1a and R1b people.
        But there is a lot more to it than that!

        Reply
      2. Savalas

        Simply put, both Elbe and Łeba were coined by Q people. These words are from their languages.
        These terms mean verbally Whitesand for coastal points and Whitewater for rivers with sandy banks.
        The weird and funny thing is how R1a people knew the trick behind it.

        Reply
      3. Savalas

        Just kidding in one thing … those Al names were coined by I people and must have sounded something along like Alba/Elba.
        Q people coined Laba. Both forms had a somewhat different meaning. That is why there is still a bit of a confusion about the’s names.
        Eventually R1a people took Laba over. They knew about it; were aware of somewhat related tho slightly foreign touch to it.
        BTW, Łabędź in Polish means Swan.

        Reply
        1. Savalas

          Well, Q peoples’s La- is … Sand, and Ba- is White
          and so totally opposite to I peoples’ connotations.
          Funny, isn’t it. Confusion perfect!

          Reply
          1. Savalas

            Keep in mind Q people spoke various languages. They were of various clads – old and newer ones.
            La in one Q language means Water, in another it may mean something else.

  1. Savalas

    OK, so after all this is said you may have second thoughts going way behold your former imaginable?
    Like HP I is overrated and all others more complex than what we had on the table. But it is clear now that you have to touch more distant people too.

    Reply

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