Monthly Archives: August 2015

Were There Vandals in Poland? – Part I

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Poles as Vandals

An interesting aspect of the debates about the “pre-historic” past of Poland has been the insistence on a Vandal connection.  That insistence has a long tradition.  An early reference is Gerhard from Augsburg’s statement that in year 992 there died “Misica dux Vandalorum referring to Mieszko I of Poland.  Of course, “Wandal” was then prominently featured in various Polish sources:

  • Kadlubek mentions, Wanda the princess who was the daughter of Krak;
  • Dzierzwa (Mierzwa) Chronicle puts a Vandalus in the family tree of the first Poles;
  • Greater Poland Chronicles name Vistula the River Vandalus after the same Wanda and hence the Poles become known as Vandals, etc.

Elsewhere, in Fredegar, there is a Croccus (Krak?) who is presented as a Vandal (as opposed to Gregory of Tours’ Alemanic prince).  All of this contributed to the thinking that the Poles were the descendants of Vandals – simplistically, not that some were but that all were – or at least the important ones.  (An exhaustive literature deals with this topic and we will not repeat all of that here).

Later, the Bishop of Warmia/Ermland, the Polonized German, Marcin Kromer claimed that the Slavs were not Illyrians, nor Dacian nor Germans (in the then “modern” sense) nor Vandals (“Polonos & Slauos, Vandalos non esse“).  Rather, he said, the Slavs were related to the old Veneti who were Sarmatians.  That is, for Kromer, Sarmatian was not an ethnic concept as much as geographic and he noted that the Veneti came out of Sarmatia and out of the Veneti there came Slavs.  In this discussion he based his reasoning primarily on the work of Jordanes.  And he too, like the earlier Polish authors, presented his views in the “all or nothing” package.

vannalos1

The 1589 edition of Kromer’s “Siue de origine et rebus gestis Polonorum”

In the centuries that followed, the Poles dropped the “Vandal” attire and began to view themselves as Sarmatians.  In fact, Polish nobility developed an entire “Sarmatian” style.  However, in doing so, they basically ignored the Veneti and focused, instead on re-creating the old Sarmatian, as they imagined him, which, in practical terms, for them, came to mean someone with an appearance of an Eastern-flavored Scythian/Cossack type with a heavy dose of the then relevant Tatar and Turkish styles.

Germans as Vandals

The Polish move away from the Vandals left the field open for the Germans to claim the Vandals as their own.  The Vandals, at least of the sixth century, spoke Germanic, i.e., Gothic, as per Procopius (History of the Wars, Book III, Vandalic War, chapter II):

There were many Gothic nations in earlier times, just as also at the present, but the greatest and most important of all are the Goths, Vandals, Visigoths, and Gepaedes. In ancient times, however, they were named Sauromatae and Melanchlaeni; and there were some too who called these nations Getic.  All these, while they are distinguished from one another by their names, as has been said, do not differ in anything else at all. For they all have white bodies and fair hair, and are tall and handsome to look upon, and they use the same laws and practise a common religion. For they are all of the Arian faith, and have one language called Gothic; and, as it seems to me, they all came originally from one tribe, and were distinguished later by the names of those who led each group. This people used to dwell above the Ister River from of old.

Furthermore, the then names of Vandal leaders certainly did sound Gothic.  Thus, it was possible to identify the Vandals as Germanic speaking – again, at least as of the sixth century.

That, in turn, translated into politics and the the expansionist aims of the German Reichs (both the second of the 19th century and the third of the 20th).   It was claimed that the Vandals (and Goths and other Germanic tribes) inhabited all of Central Europe and so the Germans were now simply reclaiming their property which, previously had been stolen (when the Germans were out fighting Romans) by the Slavs (who came from the Pripet Marshes or Urals or space) when no one was looking.

Of course, this too was an “all or nothing” type of thinking.  Had the Vandals been in, e.g., Poland, they would have left some of their offspring there presumably who would then (presumably) be Poles.  At the same time, the “Germans” of the time may well have been Germanized Slavs.  To have the latter claim more ownership of Vandal heritage would seem bizarre* but there you have it.  (The Nazis, of course, took a more “nuanced” view and went out looking for “Aryan” children amongst the Slavs as part of their Lebensborn program – Poland lost about 200,000 children this way – most of whom live as Germans to this day and do not know who they are).

Although today no sane German claims any part of Poland (or any other European country) on the basis of some mythical Vandal past, the rapprochement in historical science has resulted in the wide acceptance that Vandals, in fact, had been in Poland and many historians and archeologists – German, Polish and Scandinavian – claim as much.  In particular, the Vandals have been associated with the so-called Przeworsk “culture” of pots and pans.

But What of the “Real” Vandals?

We will not deal with the archeologists as their pots and pans are not known to have been stamped “Made in Vandalia”.  We will ask, however, what the historians say of the Vandals.

Next time.

* Not to mention that the references to the Sarmatians and the Melanchlaeni above could serve to build an entirely new theory of the “Scandinavians” coming into Europe last, in an (appropriately styled) pincer maneuver, whereby the first wave would have been the northern one that pushed past Finns into Scandinavia and then south through future Denmark and the second wave were the other Goths, Vandals and others who would have come from the Volga region a century ahead of the Huns.  Alas, we leave that for others to construct – though note such a theory might have the advantage of explaining the Tocharian language being centum!

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August 7, 2015

Alfred’s “Orosius” & Its North European Geography

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King Alfred of Wessex (871-899) was a true Renaisance man and this too quite a few hundred years before the Renneissance.  He ran England, fought Viking invaders and in spare time wrote and translated ancient tomes.  Amongst his works was, until recently, thought to be a translation (into Old English) of Paulus Orosius’ (375 till after 418) book “History Against the Pagans” (Historiarum Adversum Paganos).  That book (or books, since there are, technically, seven such books) contains a version of the history of the world (as per Orosius) up until the sack of Rome by Alaric in 410.  (There are now some who question whether Alfred (who did write books) was the translator of Orosius).

Whether it was Alfred or someone else, the fact is that the Old-English Orosius also contains a 9th century imprimatur on Orosius, namely, a geographical section describing the continents as known at the time of Alfred.  Here we have the first medieval references to lands of Northern Europe, including those then occupied by the Slavs.  Tacked onto that geography are also the stories of the journeys of Ohthere north of Norway into the White Sea and of Wulfstan along the Pomeranian coast to the trading emporium at Truso.

maporosius

We will, of course, return to Ohthere and Wulfstan in their own time.  In the meantime, however, let us look at what the good king Alfred wrote about the lands and tribes of Northern Europe.  These are from Book I, Chapters 11 and 12.  The latter we broke up into four pieces to make it easier for the reader to follow.  Each piece is further subdivided into the Old-English, English and general observations sections.  A copy of the relevant text from the Lauderdale manuscripts precedes the Old-English version.  The references to Slavic or likely Slavic tribes or localities are in red.  Note too that the Old-English text contains three letters no longer in use:

  • Þ þ – “thorn” – basically a “th”;
  • Ð ð – “eth” – roughly the same “th”;
  • Æ æ – “ash – representing a middle sound between “a” and “e”;

Finally, we note that there are only two surviving manuscripts of Alfred’s Orosius.  The so-called Lauderdale manuscripts (aka the Tollemache or Additional 47967) and the Cotton Tiberius B.i.  The first may have been written in Alfred’s time (and court) or in the first half of the 10th century.  The second has been dated to the early 11th century.  Both of these manuscripts (as per above references) reside in the British Library.  The British Library is woefully behind France, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Poland and the Czechs in their digitization efforts so only certain pages are available online.  The below is a montage of the Lauderdale and the Cotton manuscripts taken from the Bosworth (1859) & Sweet editions (1883). We lean towards the latter, e.g., we use lond rather than land following Sweet (and ie rather than ea).

Chapter 11

orosius11

Old English

“Nu wille we ymb Europe lond-gemære reccan, swa mycel swa we hit fyrmest witon. — Fram þære ea Danais, west od Rin da ea, (seo wyld of þæm beorge þe man Alpis hæt, and yrnd þonne nord-ryhte on þæs garsecges earm, þe þæt land utanymblid, þe man Bryttannia hæt); — and eft sud oþ Donua þa ea, (þære æwylme is neah þære ea Rines, and is siddan east yrnende wid [norþan] Creca land ut on þone Wendel-sæ); — and nord oþ þone garsecg, þe man Cwen-sæ haet: binnan þæm sindon manega deoda; ac hit man hæt eall, Germania.”

English

“Now we will speak as much as we know about the boundaries of Europe from the river Don westward to the river Rhine (which springs from the mountains called Alps and then runs right north into the arm of the ocean that lies around the country called Britain) and again south to the river Danube (whose spring is near the river Rhine and which afterwards runs east by the country north of Greece into the Mediterranean Sea) and north to the ocean which is called the White Sea within there are many nations but they call it all Germania.”

Observations

Obviously quite an interesting text for many reasons.  Note that the Anglo-Saxon words used are much closer – both in meaning and in form – to similar Slavic words:

  • reccan – to speak – today’s remnant of that being reckon with “I reckon” originally probably meaning no more than something like “I say”; see, e.g., Polish rzekac or Czech rikat;
  • witon – to know – today’s German wissen; see, e.g., Slovenian vedeti (to know) but also videti (to see) – same concept, obviously; also same as Svante-vit – the name of the Rugian God and, maybe, as Ario-vistus;
  • manega deoda – many peoples/nations – today’s German manche or Englich many; previously too Gothic manags; see, e.g., Polish/Russian, etc mnogi/mnogo (numerous, plentiful) or, for that matter mnożyć (g >ż as in Bóg > Boży), i.e., to multiply; thus you can see that the “g”, common to all these languages was dropped from English/German but remains in Slavic languages.  Deoda itself is likely related to leuda as in Slavic lud;

As regards some geographic names, Creca land is not Cracow but Greece or, really, by that time, the Byzantine Empire (but, of course, there could always be an unexplored link (!between the Slavs and the Greeks).  Wendel-sæ (Sea of the Vandals) is not the Baltic Sea but the Mediterranean Sea.  Finally, note the priceless statement regarding Germania being the home of many nations – in the 9th century at least.

Chapter 12

Section I

orosius12-1

1) Old English

“Þonne wyð nordan Donua æwylme, and be eastan Rine syndon East-Francan; and be suþan him sindon Swæfas, on oþre healfe þære ie [same as Bosworth’s ea] Donua.  and be suþan him and be eastan sindon Bægware [Bosworth uses Bægð-ware], se dæl þe man Regnesburg [Bosworth Regnes burh] hætt.  and ryhte be eastan him sindon Bæme [Bosworth – Beme], and eastnorþ sindon Þyringa(s).  and be norþan him sindon Eald-Seaxan, and be norþanwestan him sindon Frysan.  and be westan Eald-Seaxum is Ælfe-muþa þære ie, and Frysland.”

1) English

“Then to the north from the spring of the Danube and to the east of the Rhine are the East Franks and to the south of them are the Suabians on the other side of the river Danube.  To the south and to the east are the Bavarians that part which is called Ratisbon.  Right to the east of them are the Bohemians and north east are the Thuringians.  To the north of them are the Old Saxons and to the north west of them are the Friesians.  To the west of the Old Saxons is the mouth of the river Elbe and Friesland.”

1) Observations

Not much here.  The Bohemians are obvious.  The Swæfas are the “modern” Germanic Swabians.

Chapter 12

Section II

orosius12-2

2) Old English

“and þonan, west-norð is þæt lond þe mon Ongle hæt, and Sillende and sumne dæl Dene.  and be norþan him is Afdrede and eastnorþ Wilte, þe mon Hæfeldan hætt.  and be eastan him is Wineda lond, þe mon hætt Sysyle, and eastsuþ, ofer sum dæl, Maroara.  and hie Maroara habbað bewestan him Þyringas, and Behemas, and Begware healfe; and be suþan him on oþre healfe Donua þære ie is þæt land Carendre suþ oþ þa beorgas þe mon Alpis hæt.”

2) English

“From thence north west is the country called Anglen and Zealand and some part of Denmark.  To the north are the Afdrede and north east the Wylte who are called Haefeldan.  To the east of them is the country of the Wends who are called Sysyle; and south east at some distance the Moravians.  These Moravians have to the west of them the Thuringians and Bohemians and part of the Bavarians.  To the south of them on the other side of the river Danube is the country Carinthia lying south to the mountains called the Alps.

2) Observations

The Afdrede are most likely the Slavic Obotrites perhaps on the River Wirra (today’s Werra, a tributary of the Wesser) about the future town of Bremen (see “in Vulgmodia in loco Bremon vocato super fluvium Viraam” – wir is obviously a Slavic word).

The Wilte are the Veleti of whom we wrote copiously before.

The Sysyle are the Susli/Suseli/Susły mentioned along with the Sorbs in a revolt of 869 or 874 (as per the Fulda Annals) and later too by Otto III (985) who wrote about the main towns of the Suseli. Elsewhere, it has been claimed that the name Shesil engraved in runes refers to the Susli.   Also, the ode of Harald the Valiant mentions a “tour” by Harald’s ships of Sicily – though some suspect the Susli country is meant.  This is unlikely as the Vikings did in fact take Sicily itself (as did the Vandals earlier).  There is also a reference in one of Snorri’s Sagas to the Syslo kind who, allegedly, put an end to the Swedish King Yngvar (Ynglinga Saga chapter 16) – there is no proof that such a king ever existed.  Much of this derives from the suppositions of Forster (who also sees the Susli as coming as far East as the Esti/Osti – presumably, he thinks, in Estonia – but see below not that topic).

The Moravians (like the Bohemians) need no introductions.

Finally, Carinthia was the seat of the Slavic Carantani since at least the time of Samo (indeed, at least one source claims Samo was Carinthian) but by 745 fell into the hands of the Franks.  The Carinthinians are the ancestors of southern Austrians and of Slovenes.

Chapter 12

Section III

orosius12-3

3) Old English

“To þæm ilcan beorgan licgað Begwara landgemæro and Swaefa.  Þonne be eastan Carendran londe, begeondan þæm westenne, is Pulgara land. and be eastan þæm is Creca land.  and be eastan Maroara londe is Wisle lond.  and be eastan þæm sint Datia, þa þe iu wæron Gotan.  Be norþaneastan Maroara sindon Dalamentsan and be eastan Dalamentsan sindon Horigti.  and be norþan Dalamentsan sindon Surpe;  and be westan him Sysyle.  Be norþan Horoti is Mægþa land; and be norþan Mægþa londe Sermende oþ þa beorgas Riffen.”

3) English

“To the same mountains extend the boundaries of the Bavarians and of the Suabians and then to the east of the country Carinthia beyond the desert is the country of the Bulgarians and to the east of them the country of the Greeks.  To the east of the country Moravia is [the country of the Wisle or Vislaland] and to the east of them are the Dacians who were formerly Goths.  To the north east of the Moravians are the Dalamensan, and to the east of the Dalamensan are the Horithi, and to the north [?] of the Dalamensan are the Surpe and to the west of them are the Sysele.  To the north of the Horiti is Maegtha-land and north of Maegtha-land,  are the [Sarmatians?] even to the Rhipaean mountains.”

3) Observations

The Pulgara land reference is an obvious to the Bulgarians, the former Turkic people who by the 9th century (in fact much earlier) had taken over the Slavic tribes of the Black Sea.

Wisle lond or Wisle land designates the country of the Vistula (presumably not the Oder by this time!)  Whether that country formed an independent polity at the time or whether it was just a geographical description is uncertain.  In the Anglo-Saxon poem Widsith we have the “wood of Wistla” – Wistlawudu (“ymb Wistlawudu wergan sceoldon“) but not much else.  However, that poem refers to a much earlier time.  Nevertheless, the tribe of the Vistulians – in the form Vuislane – is mentioned by the Bavarian Geographer.  And there is the letter from Methodius to the “duke in Vislech” from the tenth century, suggesting a polity did arise there in the 9th century – presumably around Cracow – perhaps even before Gniezno.

The Dalamensan are likely the tribes of the Tollensee – the Redarii.  This was the tribe of the Rethra/Redegost temple – a member (at some point) of the Veleti confederation.

Continuing on: the Horigti or Horoti are likely the Croatians of White Croatia – presumably somewhere in Poland.  Into the speculation of whether these (and indeed the Croats) were the same as the earlier Harudes/Harudi of Caesar we will not go into now (though some suspect that the Harudes came from the region around Lake Constance, i.e., Lake Venetos).  Incidentally, the Cotton manuscript has Horithi and Horiti, respectively.  Apparently, neither scribe was able to keep a name spelling straight even for a few lines.

The Surpe are the Sorbs of White Serbia/Sorbia.

Finally, the mysterious Maegtha-land, as the name may suggest (if you believe it refers to the German Mägd, as in English maid, meaning also “servant girl” or, just girl) may refer to :

  • the mysterious City of Women of Ibrahim ibn Ya’qub which according to him was located somewhere “West of the Rus”;
  • the land of the Amazons from the Ravenna Geography (though that was in Hour 9 whereas the Slavs feature in hour 6) and many ancient sources (a survey for another time).

Whether that place of Amazons has anything to do with the Polish central region of Mazovia where, according to Jan Dlugosz, long after the baptism of Poland, people worshipped the Goddess Lada is uncertain.  (Later sources point to south-central Poland too; on Lada, generally, see also here).

The Sermende seems to mean “the Sarmatians” – whether that covers people belonging to a specific set of tribes (Alans?) or is simply an ancient use of the term, we do not know.

Chapter 12

Section IV

orosius12-4

4) Old English

“Be westan Suþdenum is þæs garsecges earm þe þe liþ ymbutan þæt land Brettania; and be norþan [him] is þæs sæs earm þe mon hæt Ostsæ; and be eastan him and be norþan sindon Nortðdene, ægþer ge on þæm maran landum ge on þæm iglandum; and be eastan him sindon Afdrede; and be suþan him is Ælfe muþa þære ie and Ealdseaxna sum dæl. Norðdene habbað be norþan him þone ilcan sæs earm þe mon hæt Ostsæ, and be eastan him sindon Osti þa leode; and Afrede be suþan.  Osti habbað be norþan him þone ilcan sæs earm, and Winedas, and Burgendan; and be suþan him sindon Hæfeldan.  Burgendan habbað þone (ilcan) sæs earm be westan him; and Sweon be norþan; and be eastan him sint [Sarmatians?], and be suþan him Surfe.  Sweon habbað be suþan him þone sæs earm Osti; and be eastan him [Sarmatians?] ; and be norþan him ofer þa. westenne is Cwenland; and be westannorþan him sindon Scridefinnas; and be westan Norþmenn.”

4) English

“To the west of the South-Danes is the arm of the ocean, which lies around the country of Britain; and to the north of them is the arm of the sea called the Baltic [Ostsee]; and to the east and to the north of them are the North-Danes, both on the continent and on the islands: to the east of them are the Afdrede; and to the south of them is the mouth of the river Elbe with some part of the Old Saxons.  The North-Danes have to the north of them the same arm of the sea called the Baltic [Ostsee]: to the east of them are the Osti population and the Afdraede to the south.  The Osti have, to the north of them, the same arm of the sea, and also the Wends and Burgundians; and to the south are the Haefeldan.  The Burgundians have the same arm of the sea to the west of them, and the Swedes [Sweones] to the north: to the east of them are the Sarmatians, and to the south the Sorbs.  The Swedes [Sweones] have, to the south of them, the Estonian arm of the sea; and to the east of them the Sarmatians: to the north, over the wastes, is Cwén-land, and to the north-west are the Scride-Finns, and to the west the Northmen.”

4) Observations

As a geographic/linguistic curiosity we should mention that the name for the Baltic Sea, i.e., the Ostsee may not in fact mean East-Sea.  Rather, it is possible that the name derives from the people who populated its shores – the Osti.  If so, then the “Westsee” name for the North Sea would simply be an indication of the ignorance of the origin of the name for the Baltic – though an ignorance that made sense in this case and “fit”, so to speak.

Most likely these people are the same as the Esti – a people mentioned by Tacitus and many others (including, as Esti, the traveling Wulfstan about whom we have written and will write again).  However, there have been many controversies surrounding the question and some have tried to place the Osti – whether or not these be the same as the Esti) at the mouth of the Oder river (or is that the Vistula?) – were that the case then their interactions with the Susli may have taken place (on the Susli see above).

The Haefeldan are the Hevellians, which, here presumably (see above) means the same as the Veleti (“Wylte who are called Haefeldan”).

The listing of the Sorbs as Surfe is likely not an indication of their favorite pastime.

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August 3, 2015

On Guthalus sive Visculus

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One of the interesting aspects of the geographic description of Northern Europe by Pliny the Elder in his Natural History is in the following passages in Book IV:

“Some writers state that these regions, as far as the river Vistula, are inhabited by the Sarmati, the Venedi, the Sciri, and the Hirri…  The more famous rivers that flow into the ocean are the Guttalus, the Vistillus or Vistula, the Albis, the Visurgis, the Amisius, the Rhine, and the Mosa. In the interior is the long extent of the Hercynian range, which in grandeur is inferior to none.” 

quidam haec habitari ad Vistlam usque fluvium a Sarmatis, Venedis, Sciris, Hirris tradunt… amnes clari in oceanum defluunt Guthalus, Visculus sive Vistla, Albis, Visurgis, Amisis, Rhenus, Mosa. introrsus vero nullo inferius nobilitate Hercynium iugum praetenditur.

At first glance nothing is out of place.

However, what is strange, if you look again, is that the river Guttalus comes first in the list of rivers.  Why is that strange?  Well, because the river had been identified with the River Oder.  “So what?” you say.  Well, the question is why should it be the Oder?

There are three reasons for this.  The first two are a reflection of the above text of Pliny’s:

1) The only major river in the area otherwise – supposedly – not on this list would be the Oder; and

2) we know what every other river on the list is.

Hence, the river Guttalus must be the Oder.

So what is strange about this being the Oder?  Well, if you look at the list again, you will note that the list generally runs East to West – except for the Oder/Guttalus which, apparently, comes ahead of the Vistula.   So that the list goes: Oder > E (Vistula) > W two “spaces” (Elbe) > W (Weser) > W (Ems) > W (Rhine) > W (Meuse/Maas).

The third reason comes from another author of antiquity, Gaius Julius Solinus (about third century) who wrote in his Polyhistor (chapter 21) that:

“The interior of [Germania] is cut through by the Elbe, the Guttalus, the Vistula, major rivers that flow into the Ocean.”

De internis ejus partibus, Albis, Guthalus, Vistula, amnes latissimi praecipitant in Oceanum.

polihistoriz

So Solinus would have gotten this right in his West to East list.  However, it appears that Solinus’ work was rooted in Pomponius Mela’s Geography and in the above Natural History of Pliny.  The former did not write about the river Guttalus and the latter’s description is much more detailed as can be seen above.

For this reason some folks have tried to find another location for the River Guttalus and specifically a location East of the Vistula.  For example, one such candidate has been the Pregel/Prieglius and others have also been suggested.  If the Vistula, however, is understood to have been the border of Germania with Sarmatia then this approach would put the Guttalus rather deep into Sarmatia.  On the other hand, you could look at this as just expanding Germania – and Germania always likes to expand.

Nevertheless, the majority approach has been to assume that Pliny was just careless here and that the Guttalus really is the Oder.

Thoughts

Obviously, other possibilities exist.  In particular, we observe that those who have previously been eager to locate the Goths at the mouth of the Vistula seem now to have forgotten that urge and insist on the Oder being Guttalus.  And yet, at the mouth of the Vistula we have today the city of Gdansk (as well the city of Gdynia).  Now, the names of these are Slavic but the root is highly suggestive.  Highly suggestive of the Goths.  (This would not necessarily mean that the Goths ruled the area but it could mean that Gothic trading emporia (like the earlier/later Truso) were located there or, simply, that the Goths came into port there to trade).

So was Guttalus just another name for the Vistula?  If so, then we would have a solution to our puzzle and Pliny’s carelessness (or ignorance, take your pick) would have been been shown to be nonexistent, a modern world’s misunderstanding of the great man’s writing.

The price for this solution, however, is that the nomenclature surrounding the river Vistula is getting busy indeed.  Pliny already has “Visculus sive Vistla” and now too Guttalus.  All for the same river.  A worthy river, we admit, but, nevertheless, three names as opposed to only one for the mighty Rhine seems a bit much.

There is another possibility.  It is possible, of course, to show that:

  • Guttalus is its own river separate from the “Visculus sive Vistla”; and that
  • one need not look for the Guttalus in former East Prussia or further Northeast; and that
  • Pliny really did go East to West for all his listed rivers.

But the admittance of such a possibility requires a kind of a paradigm shift.

We would have to admit the possibility that today’s Vistula was once called Guttalus and that today’s Oder was yesterday’s Vistula.  Of course, this would shift the eastern boundary of the Roman concept of Germania and the western boundary of the Roman concept of Sarmatia westwards.  It would also put the Goths deep in Sarmatia – though, of course, they eventually ended up even deeper on the Black Sea.  For more on this see here.

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August 1, 2015